Q & A: Greg Barsby, managing director of QinetiQ Australia

Phil Tarrant:

Good day, everyone. How you going? Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us as we navigate defence and defence industry. And obviously, smack bang right now in defence industry, we've got our finger on the pulse. I'd like to think through defenceconnect.com.au, we've now been doing this for many years and the breadth and depth of coverage across the website led by a very talented editor. I don't want to talk him up too much Liam Garman, Editor of Defence & Security at Momentum Media. Go and check it out. If you're not familiar with it, every single day, breaking coverage about what's happening in defence. We cover sort of both sides of the defence equation. That is, the environment in which Australia is operating in right now. And some of the contested space that we're seeing to the north of Australia and what that means for Australia and our long term future.

Obviously, the Orcas arrangement's been dominating our headlines and capability building around that. However, we're passionate about the very important work played by defence industry. The heartbeat and very much part of the DNA of Defence Connect and covering off those organisations, which are doing things differently. Changing, shaping the narrative to be supportive of Australia's objectives. We're very fortunate in Australia that... And I reckon COVID's been an enabler of this. All of the talent that used to go overseas, looking for new careers, we've been able to keep him here. And I think the opportunities which are really arising inside of defence industry right now means we should be able to attract and retain that talent here in Australia. Because it's absolutely critical as we all embark on this pathway towards deepening our sovereign industrial capabilities, which is a headline discussion. It's a motherhood theme that we discuss a lot on the podcast.

But there's one part of sovereign capabilities, which I must admit I'm not that familiar with. I know this is working in the background. It's probably not the sexiest part of defence industry. It's not jets and chips and submarines, but it is a big part of making sure stuff works well: test and evaluation. I want to dig into it because I'm not too sure just how deep our capabilities as a nation are in this regards, and what the future actually holds.

In the studio with me, Greg Barsby, he's the Managing Director of QinetiQ. I hear these guys are doing a lot in this regards. They've been flying under the radar, maybe purposefully. But I've persuaded them in coming and have a chat to us about what they're up to. Greg, how you going? You well?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah, really good. Thanks, Phil.

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Phil Tarrant:

So it's been a while since we last caught up and it might have even been maybe in Avalon or a Pacific a couple of years ago. And obviously that's been disrupted, but yes, we got a Land Forces at some point this year. But that's the extent of it. I see we're doing a Land Forces again next year. So I know the industry is itching to get out and start connecting. We cover a lot of different industry sectors here in Momentum Media, but I must admit that the networking component of defence is probably at its height.

We have our big Australian Defence Industry Awards coming up as well in December. You can go and check it out on our website. But test an evaluation. I'm going to put my hand up and say, I'm not that informed about this. So I'm going to be a curious discussion with you today to get an understanding for where this sits within the framework of defence industry and capability building, but also where your focus is. So let's kick it off. Can you give us some sense, Greg, on T&Es? Am I using the right term? Is it T&E? Or TE? Or test and evaluation? How do we shorten it?

Greg Barsby:

T&E.

Phil Tarrant:

T&E.

Greg Barsby:

T&E. Test and evaluation. Yep. It's a really interesting part of the whole defence enterprise. And given the massive expenditure that Australian government's embarked on in terms of our platform and capability acquisition over the coming decades, it's an exciting part to be involved in. Evolving platform technology and threat environments mean that our military decision makers have to be equipped with the best knowledge they can about that capability. And that's an area that our business, QinetiQ, has significant experience in on a global basis. And we're working very hard to build sovereign capability in test and evaluation here in Australia by investing into Australia and leveraging the world class capability we've got into our country. So exciting times for us as a business and for us as a nation, really.

Phil Tarrant:

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess the T&E doesn't really get the big headlines because, no doubt, there's just an assumption that it's happening and it's happening well, and therefore it shouldn't really have the spotlight put it on it. But you're talking about T&E being a sovereign capability. And everyone sort of normally looks at sovereign capability down the lens of our ability to build ships, et cetera, or sovereign cyber capabilities. So why is this something that should be a capability today is inherent in Australia, domiciled in Australia, and we're not relying on anyone else to make sure we get it right?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah, look, lots of elements of test and evaluation on a platform are conducted through that platform's design and development life cycle. But when you bring platforms into service, it might be designed by one of our allies, but we bring it into service in Australia. We use it in our own unique ways. We integrate the capability that that platform brings in different ways with other platforms that it might not have been used in before. And, hence, that test and evaluation to make sure that the platform or the capability is going to work in our conditions, in the way we want to use it, in conjunction with the other platforms and capabilities we have, is a really important capability to have. And one that has been identified by government, in the sovereign industry capability priority, as one that we have to have in Australia. It's an area that requires highly skilled people. Usually engineers or scientists. And working very collaboratively with other industry players and with the customer side, with the defence side to deliver test and evaluation quite seamlessly.

Phil Tarrant:

Where does the sophistication lie with test and evaluation? And from my view would be that this is a programme to test and evaluate a particular platform, a particular capability. So it needs to go through the rigour of a process. Someone needs to determine what that process is and why that process needs to be undertaken in order to give it a thumbs up or thumbs down: that this capability is right. Where does the talent lie with T&E? And no doubt, these are the people you're finding or you're attracting into QinetiQ to embark on these programmes.

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. QinetiQ has global expertise in T&E across land, maritime and air domains with really unique operational knowledge that we've developed over decades through operating 16 world class test and evaluation capabilities on behalf of the UK's MOD. We're a real world leader in delivering end-to-end test and evaluation, combining advanced technology with unique operational knowledge and a deep understanding across all of those domains.

Some of the tests that we do are incredibly sophisticated. And I'll just briefly talk about one of our sites, which is the MOD Hebrides range, which is in northwest of Scotland. And I've been lucky enough to visit that range. That's a range where we conduct ballistic missile tests, and test of combat management systems and air ground defence systems. To give you an idea of the scale, that's a range that we expand to about million square kilometres of cleared sea and airspace. And the altitude that we can operate at when that range is in full swing is unlimited.

So we will fire off a missile aisle from the range base there that goes just outside the earth's atmosphere, travelling at something like four kilometres a second. And then track it and intercept it and test the systems that do that. That's incredibly sophisticated stuff and requires people who've devoted their careers to the engineering and science in those fields. And that's the really high end stuff. That's test and evaluation on a huge scale. But it's one that our business has significant experience in, and working with numerous militaries from around the world and of course the British MOD to deliver that kind of capability. So we're talking quite specialist skill sets that we need in people to conduct this kind of T&E.

And if you think about one of the things I just said, that when that range is expanded to its full capability, it's a million square kilometres of cleared air space and sea space. And QinetiQ does that. That's QinetiQ people who do that operation and sign off on that space as clear and safe to conduct those tests. Now, you think about the experience that you want in people who do operations like that. You think about the time it takes to build those capabilities into people. It's not trivial at all. It's really sophisticated high end stuff.

And one of the really exciting things about being part of QinetiQ as a business is we can leverage that capability into Australia. And we are embarking on what we call our sovereign T&E Skills Development Programme, where we are looking to recruit people, not only in Australia, but from around the world. And harness that knowledge and capability and infrastructure that QinetiQ has access to, to train people up and bring them back to Australia to support T&E activities in Australia.

I think that's incredibly exciting. That's going to be incredibly beneficial to Australia to have access to those kind of skills and capabilities. And I think it'll provide people some just incredible career options.

Phil Tarrant:

Absolutely. And I can see the benefits of that global presence and how Australia can benefit from. And thanks, Greg, for visualising that for me. That's how I think. I'm very visual sort of guy, so how the T&E works. But no doubt, one of the key outcomes of doing this effectively is, yes, you get to prove the platform and the sophistication around it. But, no doubt, when it gets in the hands of the war fighter, they're going to have the true appreciation of what a particular piece of capability can do and can be used for, for the betterment of everyone. So that would be sort of influencing sort of doctrine and influencing tactical executional utility of these type of products.

Greg Barsby:

Yeah, absolutely. At its heart, test and evaluation kind of delivers for us contextualised objective evidence that ensures that the true kind of operating tolerances and limits of a platform, or of a particular capability, are understood. And then it enables the people making decisions about that capability to be able to use it more effectively. That's part of the science that's at the core of test and evaluation. And we do it live, like I was just talking about before. We do model based simulation and have multiple T&E outputs in the context of different threats and scenarios to ensure people understand risks and opportunities, et cetera.

Phil Tarrant:

We're going to a quick break. When we come back, we'll dig a little bit more into T&E and how it's evolved in lockstep with digital sophistication. Back in a moment.

Welcome back everyone. Phil Tarrant, I'm host of the Defence Connect podcast chatting with Greg Barsby. He's the Managing Director of QinetiQ. So can you give me some sense, Greg, again, that was a very visual analogue, a view of a T&E process underway. But, no doubt, digital connectivity and technology's big driver of it, what's the role now of T&E and how it's evolved in lockstep with digital sophistication? You can pretty much digital twin everything these days. No doubt that's all happening as part of the process.

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. As the power of a digital engineering approach is harnessed and becomes more mainstream. We can certainly capitalise on that. Harnessing advanced digital technology enables platforms to be kind of test and evaluated in really complex virtual threat environments, at the front end reduces time into service whilst operational. It reduces time out of service for platforms. And can be used to extend the life of platforms. We combine all of that capability in the test evaluation that we do. And another nexus there is the crossover into operational training. If you're conducting test and evaluation in a virtual way, you can harness those environments in order to integrate live, virtual and constructive training and testing in ways that are really kind of groundbreaking, cost effective and, importantly, safe for the people involved.

Phil Tarrant:

And you mentioned the significant global capabilities QinetiQ has around T&E, and being able apply some of those learnings into Australia. Can you give me some sense, Greg, for the uniqueness of T&E in the Australian environment versus what you see globally? No doubt, the discipline, there's a lot of continuity of it irrespective of where it's taking place, but there must be some Australianisms around T&E which makes us different from other nations?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. I think that one of the things is that on a global scale, we are a relatively small defence force. But we have enormous capability because of the technologies and the platforms and the capabilities we've invested in over the years. We've kind of been in that luxurious spot, I suppose, where we've been able to collaborate with different allies to develop different capabilities. The T&E challenge in that is bringing them together in a joint environment or in a joint use situation where we're using platforms that haven't necessarily been used together before. Or using them to create a capability in a way that hasn't been used before. And I think that's somewhere where Australia's enjoyed a reputation for being quite innovative in how we employ the different capabilities that we've got for our advantage. And that trickles back into the test and evaluation requirements that we need. There's an underlying base, kind of core, T&E capability that we need across everything, but then it's when we're using things in different ways, we've got to test and evaluate it in different ways. If that makes sense.

Phil Tarrant:

Yeah. It does and what's the relationship or approach within the ADF towards T&E? And no doubt, designated as a pretty essential capability to get right. But where does it sit within the ADF and how do they like working with industry to make sure they get this right?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. I think our defence force has been on a bit of a journey with T&E. If you go back probably a bit more than a decade, we acquired a number of platforms back then through the FMS approach. And all of the developmental T&E, et cetera, was done through the development process of that platform. And then as we started to use these platforms in our own ways, the requirement for in country capability to conduct that T&E has kind of evolved.

And I think we're about to go into the next level, I guess, or the next stage of that journey, where a much more sophisticated test and evaluation capability is needed in country to enable us to get the best from the platforms that we're investing in. Which are all now latest gen platforms that we will be using, again, in our own unique ways. So I think defence has been on a journey on that and is really at the point where it's appreciating the length and breadth of the T&E capability that are required in order to deliver the absolute best capability that we can to those who wear the uniforms.

Phil Tarrant:

And when you typically get involved as part of that T&E process, there's these big procurement programmes that happen over time, some of them move faster than others, some of the little bit more condensed. There's a lot of big sort of air programmes underway right now in terms of capability enhancement. Do you normally get involved at sort of front of these procurement processes or sort of later on when they've started making decisions and shortlisting potential opportunities for them?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah, there's a T&E life cycle model, and I won't go into it in a lot detail because I'll just trip myself up. But we do a lot of early stage T&E with organisations like Defence Science and Technology, where we assist them with some of their bespoke trials and tests that they're doing in very early stage R&D on different capabilities. And a lot of what we do there is the engineering work to make bespoke prototypes and things for test and evaluation. Right through the platform life cycle, where we are involved in test and trials on components, or different platforms where we might help design a test for the customization of a platform and make sure that it works as expected and doesn't impact the life cycle of the... or the lifespan of that platform.

A really interesting programme that we've been involved in here is with Queensland Government, with the design development and operation of an unmanned aerial systems test range based out of Cloncurry airport in Queensland. So there we've worked with Queensland Government to design, with some partners to build, and now we operate that unmanned aerial system test range where we provide cleared air space and appropriate safety case and processes to conduct test and evaluation of unmanned aerial systems platforms. That's kind of further into the test and evaluation life cycle.

And then we do other things where we're kind of towards the tail end of a platform's life cycle, where we might be doing test and evaluation work to ensure, for example, that an airframe is not reaching the limits of its fatigue and can still be used operationally, et cetera. So there's a whole spectrum of T&E across the life cycle of platforms. And we're involved from right front end design and development, right through to the back end where we're helping manage the obsolescence of things. And, of course, all the operational test evaluation in between.

Phil Tarrant:

In a sense, Greg, we touched on it where with the lexicon of a sovereign capability team. Is that just really just started on this journey of being considered as something which is that significant? Where do you think the future lies for test and evaluation capabilities being recognised for the very important thing is? What needs to happen to really give it a kick along?

Greg Barsby:

I think the the release of the defence sovereign capability industry plans, the recent release of the defense's test evaluation strategy, like I said, I think we're moving into the next phase of Australia's test and evaluation capability. And the focus and the true need for important components of that capability to be here in Australia is a great bit of recognition, and something that I think will really help propel test and evaluation in Australia further forward.

To me, the only real way that we can secure Australia's future sovereign capability in test and evaluation is to invest in career development for Australians. And that's one of the things that we're doing, which I've touched on before with our sovereignty T&E Skills Development Programme. And we are investing in that. It's multimillion dollar investment to meet the demand that we see creating test and evaluation skills within people here in Australia.

I think that's a real career defining opportunity for people to work with some of the best test and evaluation professionals in the world. Potentially in some world class test and evaluation sites, not just in Australia, but back in the UK or other areas where we operate. It's a career development opportunity that will certainly enhance sovereign test and evaluation capabilities here in Australia. A very exciting step forward for our business here.

Phil Tarrant:

What's the career pathway into becoming a T&E professional? And we'll get into that. We'll go to another break. Stay with us. Back in a moment.

Welcome back, everyone. Phil Tarrant, I'm host of the Defence Connect podcast, chatting with Greg Barsby. He's the Managing Director of QinetiQ. So can you give me some sense, Greg, what's the career pathway into becoming a T&E professional? And whether there's such a thing as a T&E professional, I assume there is. Is it something you normally do after doing something else? So do you go into university saying, "Hey, I want to be T&E into the future," or you do a particular discipline? Or you come out of the ADF with a particular set of capabilities and operational experience, and you choose that as a career pathway and you could skill up to do it?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. Often people from engineering disciplines over time move into T&E as a career. We're really looking for people with aligned technical backgrounds, experience in adjacent industries. So don't necessarily have to have spent your career you're in defence. People with experience working in real safety critical environments would be well placed.

We welcome candidates from defence industry as well, who are looking to move across into test and evaluation. And like I said, the opportunities to work with some world class capabilities and the current platforms and future platforms that our ADF will have.

So generally people from a technical or engineering background with that focus on working with high levels of discipline to ensure that what we're doing is objective and delivering that kind of objective evidence that we need.

Phil Tarrant:

What's a saturation point? For my own education, saturation point for T&E professionals inside defence, is it a natural equilibrium now and that demand should continue as it is? Or is that if you want a job, if you want a career or a profession inside T&E, there's got to be more jobs coming out than what we have the ability to fill them in Australia?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. I think it's going to be a real growing area. And it's an area where the skills are in short supply, both across defence and across defence industry, hence, why we're investing into it. Because we foresee demand across the coming decades for these kind of skill sets. It's something that I think we'll see a lot of growth in over the coming decade.

Phil Tarrant:

It's good. There is that pathway for growth. And I think one of the biggest challenges facing defence industry in particular over the decades ahead is attracting the best and brightest talent into that sector. And I think there's always going to be more jobs than what there is people. At least when we open up the borders, we can get some more skilled migrants into Australia as well. But you mentioned the Sovereign Skills Programme, which is an initiative of QinetiQ. Tell me about that particular programme. Is that a pathway for people to be skilled or transfer maybe their engineering or other skills into being a T&E professional?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. Spot on. It's a structured, bespoke career development programme. Like I said, leveraging the capability that QinetiQ has globally to develop people to work on T&E in Australia. We've got a programme set up that will include experiential learning in live test and evaluation environments at some of QinetiQ's world class air, land and maritime T&E capabilities. And we've got a range of courses, kind of a short six week conversion course from someone who might have been a systems engineer on the edge of T&E, to convert them across and get them to be able to work in some of our programmes. Right through to a two year secondment programme, where we were looking for someone who could be a trials manager on something like guided weapons test that we were talking about earlier. We've got world class air, land and maritime T&E capabilities and it's about combining the global expertise we've got to train people up. Investing in their long term career growth to equip them with the technical behavioural and leadership competencies to be leaders in T&E in Australia. I think it's a really unique opportunity.

Phil Tarrant:

Yeah. I was going to ask you whether it's platform agnostic. And you said all domains it covers off. So there's lots of opportunities there. What you've painted to me, like a two year secondment, those people who have an engineering or that particular bent, this sounds like it could be a pretty cool job. A pretty interesting profession where it's very visceral as well. You've got to be able to get your hands dirty as part of the process.

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. If one of the things that I kind of imagined, if I was a relatively young engineer and had an interest in this, what a fantastic thing to have a two year second. And imagine if you got to go and work somewhere like MOD Hebrides and be exposed to what goes on there. Like I said, I've been there. The control room looks like the NASA control room on the Apollo 13 movie. And that's just one of the sites that we've got. There could be a phenomenal experience. Extraordinarily professionally rewarding, and one that sets you up for the rest of your career.

Phil Tarrant:

Yeah, no doubt those skills that you learn will have great application in other parts. And one thing we do know in the evolving sort of geopolitical, geostrategic environment, the need for this capabilities in technology is not going to dissipate at any point in time. And you talk about this future leaders in T&E in Australia. And we're very fortunate. We have some really good engineering and other discipline schools here in Australia that create these graduates who can mould and merge into this sort of stuff. Is there anything that makes Aussies particularly good? I'd like to fly the flag for Australia obviously. There anything that makes Aussie's particularly good at this sort of discipline?

Greg Barsby:

I mean, I think the engineering capability that we've been producing here in Australia has been pretty phenomenal for decades. One thing that I often reflect on from my time in the military and travelling the world as part of defence industry is, because we are a smaller military we tend to have broader job roles. And I think that that allows, or builds into, Australians a bit of extra flexibility and innovation to get things done, because we got to do a bit more with less, I suppose. I think that's one thing that always tends to place Australians well in their careers around the world. I think, as well, we tend to be pretty driven people, but at the same time able to have a laugh and not always take ourselves too seriously. Which sometimes seems to endear us to our compatriots in other countries.

Phil Tarrant:

We are typically well liked no matter where we go. And that's one of the great things about being Australian. And no doubt, the DOD, the government as a catchall, are probably quite happy that you're investing these bucks into creating a Sovereign Skills Programme around this. Because it needs to start at that recruitment level and actually attracting the right people in. Because otherwise it won't go anywhere. What's their thoughts on this programme?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah, certainly, the senior stakeholders on the customer side that I've engaged with on this have been really, really positive. And probably the number one question from a number of people there has been, will defence or public service people, would they be able to participate in this programme? And yeah, we would love that to happen down the track. I mean, this is the first year. So this year will be an investment in getting the programme [inaudible 00:29:15] and making sure that we can deliver on everything that we're trying to. But down the track, I think that would be the next kind of obvious, exciting extension.

We operate ETPS, a test pilot training school in the UK. And a number of uniformed pilots and engineers have been through that school over the years. Some of my colleagues actually went through that training school or training programme with QinetiQ. So there's an example of a QinetiQ institution that's already developing test and evaluation capability that's being used around the world.

Phil Tarrant:

We have broad listenership to the Defence Connect podcast, Greg. Some of them in the public service. Probably, I mean we're talking about, but people already in work or there might be uniform, ADF, thinking about life after. It's a pretty interesting programme. If they want to find out more about this and read up on it, where's the best place for them to go and check it out?

Greg Barsby:

Yeah. We've got a couple of information packs, et cetera, coming out. And of course on the QinetiQ website, we've got some information there on this. We're definitely targeting people in adjacent industries at the moment. Trying to pull more capability into defence. Certainly all of us in defence industry at the moment know that the talent pool is kind of being stretched. So we're definitely targeting people in adjacent industries at the moment and looking to grow the talent pool within defence. Information up on the QinetiQ website. Two Qs, no Us. Hopefully that makes sense in how to spell it.

Phil Tarrant:

Yeah. Right. Two Qs, no Us. Well, Greg, great to reconnect. One of my objectives in having a chat today was a lot more informed about test and evaluation, particularly within the lens of it being a sovereign capability. So thanks so much, mate. I've learned a lot. Appreciate your time catching up and go and check out. Just Google QinetiQ. Q-I-N-E-T-I-Q. Two QS. No Us. Google it. You track it down. Greg Barsby is the Managing Director of QinetiQ. Thanks for your time today.

Greg Barsby:

Thanks very much, Phil.

Phil Tarrant:

Nice one. Hope you enjoyed that, everyone. Go and check it out. QinetiQ online. You can see what they're doing with their Sovereign Skills Programme. I'm having to look myself now I'm a lot more informed around it. Hope you enjoyed that. Remember defenceconnect.com.au, daily breaking news, insights and intelligence in defence industry. Social media, if that's how you like to get your info, find us at Defence Connect. See you next time. Until then, bye bye.